2022 European Championships: Pairs Free Skate

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That judge who came up with -4 found only one positive GOE point and deducted -5 from it, that's how he/she came up with -4. He/she was the only one in the judging panel with that process of the judging and the mark didn't count in the final scores, because majority of the judges found at least two positives to begin with, or didn't deduct maximum -5 from the positives, but -4 or -3 (only for the bad landing or whatever name you gave it).

No, I pointed out exactly how that judge could have got to -4 GOE... and even that judge was being generous.

They could have even given T/M a starting GOE of +3 for unison/distance + height/distance + matching the music, but then taken off -1 for the off-axis, -1 for landing on an inside edge,-3 for the stepout, -2 for the hands down.

Or it could have been some other combination, like they only gave them the height/distance bullet for a starting GOE of +1, and then decided to ignore the wrong landing edge and off-axis position, and still ended up at -4.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

LOL yes, -5 is the worst one could score on an element. So like a two-foot + fall would score the same as a flutz fall would score the same as a downgrade + fall, etc. They are all scored the same.

The reason most falls get -5 is because a) they prevent a skater from getting 3 GOE bullets at the least (good takeoff/landing, effortless, good body position throughout) and b) they incur other deductions - the fall itself reduces GOE by -5, and then you get anywhere from -1 to -3 for a weak landing, and usually a skater falls with one or more hands touching the ice (-1 to -2). So usually that means -5 (aside from super-generous judges who give -4's if you're a top name in the field regardless of whether or not you hit the GOE bullets).

No. A jump can have multiple errors in its phases but still not get -5. It all depends on the severity of the error(s) incurred. A jump with a mistake on takeoff (say, a !, getting -1), air position (-1 for a lean), and on the landing (-1 for a two foot), can still get -3 GOE, even if they got no GOE bullets -- because their starting GOE would be 0 and then after three deductions of -1, it would end up as -3.

Now, if the errors were more severe: say, a flutz on takeoff (-2 to -4), poor speed+ poor height+poor air position (-3), a wrong edge on landing (-1), stepout (-3 to -4) etc. then yeah the final GOE could be -5 without a fall, no matter how many GOE bullets the skater ended up earning for the element's starting GOE before the reductions were applied.

I agree with you on all of that. The problem you had in 'your judging' is because you were deducting -7 from +1. As i tried to explain to you, you can deduct maximum -5. So, when you are deducting use -5 for the worst mistake(s), -4 for the bad one(s), -3 for not that bad one etc and sum it with existing positives if there are ones. Apply that on all of your past judging and you will see how your numbers are more in accordance with the judges score.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I agree with you on all of that. The problem you had in 'your judging' is because you were deducting -7 from +1. As i tried to explain to you, you can deduct maximum -5. So, when you are deducting use -5 for the worst mistake(s), -4 for the bad one(s), -3 for not that bad one etc and sum it with existing positives if there are ones. Apply that on all of your past judging and you will see how your numbers are more in accordance with the judges score.

You can give GOE only as low as -5... but the reduction errors within an element can still total more than -5. I think we're both agreeing the same thing but getting caught up in deductions vs. reductions.

In my judging of T/M's, I would have a starting GOE of +2 for T/M's 3S (amplitude; and on second thought, I can see giving them the music bullet in this case because the entry steps/mohawks do match the phrasing of the music; would be better if on the lyric they landed but close enough). However I would not give them a bullet for unison+distance (unison is good but distance is way too far apart to earn that bullet).

Then if I totalled up my reductions it would be -8 worth of reductions --- I'd give -1 for the off-axis air position, -2 for the inside edge on landing + weak landing position, -3 for the stepout, and -2 for the hands down (as I said I'd only give -2 instead of -3 because her right hand touches but isn't used to support her as much as the left). Final GOE is -5 (since I can't give a -6).

What you don't do is start at starting GOE e.g. +3, and then say the most you can REDUCE it by is -5, as there is no cap to the amount that starting GOE can be reduced until it hits 5. If a jump meets all GOE criteria, the max it can be is +3 but that doesn't mean with that starting value then the LOWEST final GOE can only be -5 less than that, i.e. -2.

Also, I wouldn't use Euros scoring as exemplary of what "good judging" is, especially if we're talking about the Russians' scores, lol. I might as well use Russian/Canadian/Japanese/US/etc. Nationals scoring.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

You can deduct to a maximum of -5 final GOE... but the errors within an element can total more than -5.

It just can't - the maximum you can deduct from the positives (or from 0 if there are no positives) is -5, you can trust me (and i did try to explain you the logic and the process of it) or you can ask ISU

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It just can't, you can trust me (and i did try to explain you the logic and process of it) or you can ask ISU

No, I'm talking about the total value of reduction errors in an element when you add them up can equal more than -5.

What you're saying is if an element has a starting GOE of +2, then the final GOE can be -3 at worst. But that's not how it works. If there is a total of more that -5 in reductions due to multiple/severe enough errors within the element, then the final GOE should be marked lower than that.

In an international competition and if T/M were not a top-tier/popular team, I'm telling you those would have been -5's and -4's across the board. It was not just a stepout with two hands down (which let's be honest most second-tier teams would get -4's for even if they hit the other GOE bullets) -- it had air position and landing edge errors too.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

No, I'm talking about the total value of reduction errors in an element when you add them up can equal more than -5.

What you're saying is if an element has a starting GOE of +2, then the final GOE can be -3 at worst. But that's not how it works. If there is a total of more that -5 in reductions due to multiple/severe enough errors within the element, then the final GOE should be marked lower than that.

In an international competition and if T/M were not a top-tier/popular team, I'm telling you those would have been -5's and -4's across the board. It was not just a stepout with two hands down (which let's be honest most second-tier teams would get -4's for even if they hit the other GOE bullets) -- it had air position and landing edge errors too.

Yes (if you found two positive bullets to begin with)! Or if you found multiple mistakes in every phase of the element you just give -5 in total, no matter if positives exist (the same as with a fall). Which i already tried to explain. That is how the scoring system works. Ask any Canadian judge, if you don't believe ISU

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes (if you found two positive bullets to begin with)! Or if you found multiple mistakes in every phase of the element you just give -5 in total (the same as with a fall). Which i already tried to explain. That is how the scoring system works. Ask any Canadian judge, if you don't believe ISU

And as I explained, you can have multiple mistakes in every phase of the element and the final GOE need not necessarily be -5, if the mistakes are minor:

e.g.1: a ! on takeoff, an off-axis in the air, and a hand down on the landing totals up to just -3 reduction
e.g. 2: an e on takeoff, an leg wrap in the air, and a stepout with hand down on the landing results in a greater reduction.
e.g. 3: a heavily telegraphed jump with e takeoff, an off axis with leg wrap in the air, and a stepout with both hands down on the landing results in even greater reduction.

 

[princecharming]

It will be interesting to see who Russia puts up for the team portion at the Olympics.

I'd stick with Boikova/Kozlovskii for the SP and Mishina/Galiamov for the LP. Whilst B/K were bronze medalists here, had it not been for the error in the SP from Alexandra, they would have probably finished with silver.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Fedor looks nice

When did he ever not look nice? He's the most gorgeous guy in the world!
I still feel his hand on my back when we took pics in his pub. I can die now.

As a teenager probably.

He did! As a kid and as a teen! He was born gorgeous! What are you thinking?

Curiosity got the better of me. I don't think I've seen Fedor Klimov as a teenager before. So, I went hunting.

Here are some still photos of Ksenia and Fedor I managed to find that were taken by David W. Carmichael at their Junior GP debut in Lake Placid, a few days before Fedor's 19th birthday:

2009 Junior GP Lake Placid SP
2009 Junior GP Lake Placid SP
2009 Junior GP Lake Placid FS
2009 Junior GP Lake Placid FS
2009 Junior GP Lake Placid Post-Podium

Here is the oldest video of them on YouTube:

Ksenia Stolbova / Fedor Klimov - 2009 Junior GP Minsk Ice FS

This competition was about 2 weeks after Fedor's 19th birthday.

Incidentally, if you want to see their SP from that season, here it is from a couple of months later:

Ksenia Stolbova / Fedor Klimov - 2009 Junior GP Final SP

Unfortunately, I can't find anything from when he was younger. September 2009 is the earliest I can find.

By the way, while doing my hunting, I discovered that you can't specify a date range in Google Image searches any more. When did that happen?! Not being able to specify dates was something I always hated about doing searches on YouTube. Because you could do it on Google searches, I always hoped that it would eventually be added on YouTube. But I was not expecting it to be taken away from Google Image searches!

Anyway, I hope you enjoyed this trip down memory lane.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[rinkside_user]

Honestly though, why skate to this particular song? Is it such an amazing song that you absolutely have to skate to, even though your main opponent for years skated to it just a few seasons ago? It's not like Carmen, where you can use different music cuts or try a different interpretation. It feels like an extremely safe and uninspired choice, because they saw it had worked for someone else in the recent past.
Of course they can do it, but I understand her disappointment, especially because the other commentator said just before that he thinks they finally found their own style and if she agrees with that.

Obviously, this is a very uninspired move from T/M. Although I know they can show strong elements on their better days but they were never super sophisticated in terms of presentation, meaning they go with whatever is thrown their way (cough Candyman cough). So there's no denying this was not a carefully crafted, meticulously planned program, and definitely not a lovechild of Bourne and Nichol in terms of choreography.

Although underhanded, trying to capitalize on someone else's success/momentum is nothing new. Having said that, feeling entitled to appropriate one piece of music because of your body of work is still a shady move from Savchenko, especially on live commentary. She could have voiced criticism in a different way and still could have articulated her opinion clearly. A lot of skaters use music from fellow competitors in later seasons just because they like the particular piece (heh, I was not complaninig at all when P/C performed their SD to WE from Korzeniowski the next season after Medvedeva's world title).